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The Chosen One: The Army’s M-17 Pistol Review by MARK MILLER

The SIG M-17 pistol is serving in combat with the US Army. The story has a happy ending, but it took years and millions of rounds to get there.
The competition for the Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract was one of the most rigorous and highly competitive review processes in the history of military firearms. It was scrutinized and contested and endlessly questioned.
SIG submitted a P320-based platform. The only true modular candidate, SIG’s XM-17 performed well during the selection under all conditions the Army could dream up. After over two million rounds of testing, the XM-17 became the M-17 and a new icon was born.
The service handguns chosen by the Army have always become essential weapons; the Remington New Army, the Colt Single Action Army, Browning’s M-1911 and the M-9 Beretta are all classics. Now you can get the latest chapter in this historic line.
Other manufacturers have been selling their versions of the MHS while SIG has been busy making guns for the Army.
Every branch of the military has adopted the M-17 and the smaller version, the M-18. At last, Sig has sent the military enough guns that they can make some M-17s for the rest of us. There are two civilian versions, The M17 Commemorative and the P320-M17 and they are on their way to an FFL near you.

P320-M17

The P320-M17 closely follows the specifications of the U.S. Army’s M17. The P320-M17 features a coyote-tan carry-length grip module available in three sizes and comes standard with a manual safety. Non-manual safety P320-M17 pistols will be shipped at a later date. There is a coyote-tan PVD coated stainless steel slide and black controls just like the pistols currently being shipped to the U.S. Army. The sights are a SIGLITE front night sight and removable Night Sight rear plate.
Many internet experts, who have never touched an M-17, believe that the small arms professionals in the Army, the Navy, the Marines, the Air Force, and the Coast Guard have gone through millions of rounds of extensive testing and picked the wrong gun.
After my own limited test firing, just over three thousand rounds through the M-17 and the 320-M17, the M-17 is my choice too and I believe that the army chose the best gun for the job.

The P320-M17 easily clangs the CTS steel targets at 50 yards. At the Academy we shot steel out to 75 yards.

The P320-M17 Specs:

Total length: 8″
Barrel length: 4.7″
Weight (incl. magazine): 29.6 oz.
Height: 5.5″
Width: 1.3″
Sight radius: 6.6″
MSRP: $768.00
I got a 320-M17 a month ago. I have taken it to classes as a student and an instructor. I have shot thousands of rounds of ball and hollow points with no issues and no cleaning. I have lubricated it and I will probably clean it when it gets dirty. This is not a torture test; the gun just isn’t dirty enough to require cleaning yet.

The P320-M17 comes with two 17 round magazines

I had the opportunity to travel to New Hampshire to visit the SIG SAUER factory. The technology is highly automated with multiple quality checks. I got to walk the production floor and see every step of the process from machining to assembly. Trained professionals assemble guns and reject any component which isn’t perfect, but that is only half the story.
There is a quality plan for each part which dictates how many parts from each lot are checked at special robot laser verification stations which check every angle of a part. These check stations are connected to each of the automated CMC machines and automatically update the instructions to the machines, in real time.
Problems are anticipated and avoided. This reduces bad parts, keeps them out of the supply chain and cuts costs so SIG can make better and less expensive guns. They test fire every gun and I got to witness the process while I was there.
I also got to go to the SIG Academy and shoot the 320-M17 for a day under strict the tutelage of a couple of former Special Forces operators (one who is still active) on their staff. I shot 400+ rounds of SIG FMJ ammunition at paper and steel targets.
We ran the guns hard and shot them hot. We worked up to multiple target drills and shooting a scenario in and around cars and barricades. The guns got hot and dirty and they all ran.
The M17 has a great trigger and good sights; I can’t tell a difference in performance or feel between the M-17 and the P320-M17. The contract specification for the M-17 was shooting a ten round four-inch group at 35 yards with crappy ball ammo which it will do all day.
The civilian versions of the M-17 are just as accurate and fun to shoot. I have used a variety of heavy and light bullets in full metal jacket and hollow points. The 320-M17 fed them all.

The P320-M17 was reliable and accurate with ball ammo

The feel and the grip angle are like the rest of the P-320 family. The manual safety is ambidextrous and placed so that the thumb rides on it naturally when you assume a firing grip. The ambidextrous slide lock sits right in front of the safety. It takes a little getting used to, but it is ergonomic and easy to use.
There is some debate about external safeties. The MHS requirements specified a safety and the M-17 delivered. The M-1911 had a well-placed safety, the M-17 is better, inspired by competition modified civilian 1911s.
There are a lot of things soldiers do, like individual movement techniques (Google it), which are fundamentally different than police or civilian applications. Military guns get banged and dropped and abused. Some soldiers jump out of airplanes wearing them.
With training, a manual safety is no slower and provides an extra layer of protection. Nobody wants to get shot doing a PLF (Parachute Landing Fall).

Speed drills at 15 yards were no problem for the P320-M17

The P320-M17 groups well at 15 and 25 yards.

The P320-M17 comes apart like any other SIG P-320. The original specifications for the XM-17 required a special tool to remove the takedown lever. This requirement was changed and now both the Army M-17s and the civilian variants have the same removable takedown lever as the P-320. The military M-17 and the Commemorative require a special tool to disassemble the slide. The trigger modules have the serial number and are completely removable.

The P320-M17 slide markings

The Commemorative

The M17 Commemorative pistol shares the same components, coatings, and markings as the original pistol that was awarded the U.S. Army contract for the modular handgun system (MHS).
Just like the military M-17, the Commemorative comes with a coyote-tan carry-length grip module and a coyote-tan PVD coated stainless steel slide. The Commemorative has coyote-tan colored controls just like the original pistols shipped to the 101st Airborne.

The Commemorative is an exact replica of the first M17s the military got. SIG has made 5,000 available to the public. It even ships in the same cardboard box that the military gets it in.

As a side note, SIG is no longer offering the coyote-tan colored controls, even for the military. So the civilian version of the M17 looks just like what the military is currently getting.
The pistol features a SIGLITE front night sight and removable Night Sight rear plate with the same optic cut as specified by the MHS contract. It comes with two 21-round magazines, one 17-round magazine and a manual safety.
Only 5,000 M17-Commemorative Edition pistols have been produced. Each one carries a unique identifier (UID) just like the Army guns. From the pistol to the same cardboard packaging as delivered to the U.S. Army, the M17-Commemorative Edition is identical to the U.S. Army’s official M-17 service pistol.
Register your M17-Commemorative and you get an official certificate of authenticity and a commemorative challenge coin, both with serial numbers matching your M17-Commemorative pistol.
To complement these guns, an M17 Collector’s Case is available separately at sigsauer.com/store.  The case is a solid cherry box, with dark mahogany stain, a tempered glass top, a brushed nickel latch and a keyhole back for optional wall-hanging.
The M17 Collector’s Case features a slate-grey flocked foam insert with an affixed U.S. Army logo, and precision laser placement cuts for the pistol, certificate and Official Challenge Coin.

M17 Commemorative pistol in optional M17 Collector’s Case

M17 Collectors Case MSRP: $199.99 (sold separately at sigsauer.com/store)

The M17-Commemorative Specs:

Total length: 8″
Barrel length: 4.7″
Weight (including 17rd magazine): 29.6 oz
Height: 5.5″
Width: 1.3″
Sight radius: 6.6″
MSRP M17-Commemorative Edition Pistol: $1,122.00
 
For more information on the SIG M17 visit SIG by clicking Here. 
____________________________
My own uninformed opinion about this pistol. Is that it does not have an exposed hammer. Which could tell somebody if the weapon could be cocked and ready to go or not.
Since  anybody who has been around guns and human beings knows from experience. There are going to be some idiot who is going to have the gun loaded and ready to go. just like on the TV or cell Phone now.
Which will lead to an “accidental” discharge & hopefully nobody getting hurt. But we know that in the real world somebody is going to get hurt.
Just saying!- Grumpy

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Colt 1911a1 National Match Commercial in 45 ACP

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Teacher Stuff, Enjoy!

Image result for angry little girl meme
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Remington Number 4 revolver, .41 Rimfire

Talk about your basic ladies Pistol, With no trigger guard at all! I can just imagine the number of accidental discharges from this one flaw alone.
But none the less, it is sorta cute in its old school way!Related image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRRrtnnklg
Image result for Remington Number 4 revolver, .41 Rimfire
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Well I thought it was funny!

Well I thought it was funny!


I stole this from the Great Blog –
Knuckledraggin My Life Away     

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All About Guns Anti Civil Rights ideas & "Friends"

So who owns all the Guns out there?

More Truth Leaks Out About Gun Control

More Truth Leaks Out About Gun Control
More Truth Leaks Out About Gun Control

U.S.A. -(Ammoland.com)- People with impressive titles tell us all sorts of things. These experts are often wrong. They are either talking outside their area of competence, or they are lying to us. I keep seeing examples like this about gun control. The more I learn, the more I have to trust my own research to be sure I have the truth. Have you noticed this too?

No One Owns Guns Anymore?

There is a claim that gun ownership is declining and most of the guns in the US are owned by only a few gun owners. I tried to take that story seriously since the report was from the Washington Post rather than the National Enquirer.
It is true that we don’t have solid nationwide data to evaluate that assertion that gun ownership is delining. We do have solid data from some states, and we have inferential data from across the country, both of which strongly contradict that claim.
The federal government doesn’t keep a registry of gun owners. However, gun shops use the FBI national instant background check system to see if a potential gun buyer is allowed to buy a gun. The number of background checks has grown year after year. Gun manufacturers also reported growing cumulative sales to the US market.

NICS Checks Per Month in Millions
NICS Checks Per Month in Millions

In contrast to national data, some states register each gun and each gun owner. Anti-rights states like California, Illinois, New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts require mandatory permits before you can buy a gun. Some require a gun owner’s identification card as well.
These states have steadily increased the regulatory burden on gun owners, and that should have made gun ownership decline. If the existing gun owners in these states were the only people who buy guns, then the number of registered gun owners would have stayed the same or fallen. Instead, we saw the number of registered gun owners increase in these states.
We have other data as well. We saw the number of concealed carry license holders increase by about 6 percent to 17.25 million people. Deep in mind that 13 states allow citizens to carry without a permit.
Gun control advocates could argue the point. The growing number of registered gun owners in anti-gun states does not exactly follow the growth of gun ownership nationwide. It is true that each NICS background check does not conclusively document a gun sale. The extraordinary and undocumented claim by the Washington Post is that the number of gun owners declined even though all these other indicators went up.

Only white men living out in the country own guns?

We’ve been sold the story that gun owners are old white men. As I said before, we don’t know exactly who owns a gun. We have even less information about the sex and racial makeup of gun owners. As we dig deeper, we find out that even the NRA doesn’t know the racial mix of its members. However, the fundraising group Friends of the NRA does know the race of its members and guests. If there are a group of old, racist gun owners somewhere, then we should have found them here at Friends of the NRA..but we didn’t.
Instead, we found that 40 percent are women. 40 percent are minority members. The average age is between 40 to 45. That looks an awful lot like the rest of the USA.
The industry trade group for gun manufacturers gets reports from firearms retailers about their customers. 66 percent of new shooters are between 18 and 34 years old. 37 percent of new shooters are female. 47 percent of new shooters live in urban/suburban settings. That doesn’t fit the stereotype we were sold.
When you stop to think about it, it makes sense that older people own more guns than younger people. Older people have had a lifetime to accumulate wealth and possessions. They own more houses and more cars as well. It makes sense that they would also own the most guns.. almost.
It turns out that the rate of gun ownership is almost the same between people under 35 years of age, and those 35 and above. What is surprising is that young people are almost twice as likely to carry concealed.
Some states collect information on the sex and race of those who apply for concealed carry permits. More of us are carrying concealed each year, but the rate at which women and minorities are applying for their permits is growing at twice the average rate.

We’re killing our school children with assault rifles?

California Senator Dianne Feinstein asked questions of Judge Brett Kavanaugh during his confirmation hearings. Senator Feinstein said there were hundreds of school shootings with assault weapons in recent history. I went back over 60 years and counted three mass murders in US schools where semi-automatic rifles were used. None of the attacks used an automatic weapon. Not one.
If they were not mass murders, then maybe Senator Feinstein was confused by less deadly attacks on our schools? The US Department of Education said that there were 235 incidents where a gun was used at a school last year. That number doesn’t match the databases I’ve seen. In fact, it looks so strange that even National Public Radio questioned the claim. NPR used an independent research service to contact all of the schools who listed a gunshot on or near campus. NPR was able to confirm 11 incidents. Keep in mind that is about a dozen incidents among 130 thousand schools. The rate of 1 in ten thousand schools is certainly not an epidemic..and that is a good thing.

The US leads the world in mass murder?

 A professor from the University of Alabama released an unpublished report to the New York Times. The professor claimed that the US had 31 percent of the mass murders in the world from 1966 to 2012 even though the US only has 5 percent of the world’s population. No one was allowed to see the data.
Other researchers produced their own report and came up with very different answers. One report said the US had about 1.4 percent of the mass murders, again with a population of 5 percent. The US went from being the most dangerous, to one of the safer countries..and this data is available for review. What should we conclude when the headlines from the New York Times miss the target by a factor of 30 or more?

The more I learn, the more I have to trust my own research to be sure I have the truth.

Please let us know as you see more mistakes published by the press.


Slow Facts
About Rob Morse
The original article is here.  Rob Morse writes about gun rights at Ammoland, at Clash Daily, and on his SlowFacts blog. He hosts the Self Defense Gun Stories Podcast and co-hosts the Polite Society Podcast. Rob is an NRA pistol instructor and combat handgun competitor

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All About Guns Well I thought it was funny!

I guess he does not like Hi-point!

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Do they have one for a Sig P-220. I wonder?

Image result for 1911 45 with drum

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Now here is a Shotgun! The THE CHURCHILL XXV

The Churchill XXV

Courtesy of James D. Julia Auctioneers/jamesdjulia.com

By Chris Batha

EJ. Churchill Gunmakers was established in 1891 by Edwin John Churchill, who set up a workshop in London at 8 Agar Street, the Strand. In 1899 Edwin was joined by his nephew, Robert Churchill. Edwin was a renowned pigeon shot who used this experience along with his gunmaking skills to make and fit pigeon guns for clients.
It was common at the time for gunmakers also to supply their own brand of cartridges for gamebirds as well as pigeon-shooting competitions. Both Edwin and Robert were considered ballistic experts and often consulted for Scotland Yard in murder inquiries involving firearms.
Beyond the company history, the mention of E.J. Churchill often conjures up discussions of the iconic Churchill XXV shotgun, with its relatively short 25″ barrels and unique, raised, inverted-V rib. Arguments for and against the rib have been carried on among sportsmen since the rib’s introduction, during the development of the XXV, from 1913 to 1915.
There are various tales regarding the genesis of the Churchill XXV. A strong favorite is that Robert was practicing for the Monte Carlo live-pigeon shoot when he somehow plugged the end of the barrels of his 30″ pigeon gun with snow. Being completely unaware of the blockage, he fired the gun and bulged the muzzles; so he cut back the damaged barrels to 25″ and shot the gun in competition.
The fabled Monte Carlo pigeon ring was smaller than standard rings, which meant that competitors had to shoot quicker to drop the pigeons in the ring. It could be attributed to Churchill’s “instinctive” point-and-shoot technique in tandem with the faster dynamics of the shorter-barreled gun, but such was his straight shooting that he began to experiment with the fine-tuning and manufacture of the XXV.
The other variation on the XXV story was that the shorter barrels were the result of a workshop snafu. A shotgun in for an annual strip and clean was dropped accidentally and badly dented at the muzzles.
With the season fast approaching, the client was told that the barrels could be shortened at the point of damage, retro-choked and used for the season and that new replacement barrels would be made for the following year.
The client enjoyed such an upturn in his shooting success that he not only kept the shortened gun but also ordered another with 25″ barrels to create a pair. Truth or fiction? We probably never will know for certain.
In the early 1900’s there were hundreds of gun makers covering the length and breadth of Great Britain. Except for some proprietary patents and designs, all of the guns produced were similar, with only the makers’ names and reputations and the quality of the finish separating them.
Robert Churchill was the P.T. Barnum of gun makers, and early on he identified what his customers really wanted: “simply to be able to shoot better.”
His most inspiring marketing strategy was the introduction of the “instinctive shooting” style and to make a gun that complemented it—the Churchill XXV.
And to complete the plan he opened a shooting school to teach his instinctive-shooting technique. The XXV was a great success, with nearly 400 guns sold between 1923 and 1924 and 368 sold in 1927-’28. Publication of Churchill’s books How to Shoot (1938) and Game Shooting (1955) kept interest alive.

The Instinctive Shot

Churchill Gun Club was opened at Crayford in Kent, a short train ride from central London. The one famous shooting instructor there was Norman Clark, who subsequently moved to Holland & Holland and was a mentor to Ken Davies. The “Churchill style” still is being taught there by Ken’s successor, Chris Bird.
In Churchill’s Shotgun Book (1955), Robert Churchill’s teaching went hand-in-glove with the use of his Churchill XXV shotgun. The primary emphasis was—and is—placed on the drilled practice like that found in kata (or “form”) in the martial arts.
The practice consists of performing the fundamentals of footwork, posture and gun mount, with total faith placed in hand-eye coordination to put the pattern on the bird without any reference to the bead or the lead—in the same manner that one would catch a ball. The practice requires hard focus; a smooth, well-practiced gun mount; the butt of the gun being placed in the shoulder pocket and the comb into the cheek; the swing speed being achieved by a transference of weight onto the back foot; and the shot being taken without pause or check.
And the perfect gun for the job was—and in many cases still is—the Churchill XXV.

The Technical Case for the XXV

As mentioned, the XXV had not only 25″ barrels but also a unique V-shaped raised rib. The raised rib required a higher comb, and Robert Churchill’s idea on stock fitting was that a higher comb with less drop placed the head in a more natural position.
A shotgun’s barrels—both their length and weight—impact swing speed, recoil and, to some extent, muzzle flip. Churchill discovered that shorter barrels are more responsive than longer barrels, as they start faster and swing faster.
The combination of Churchill’s instinctive-shooting method (the speed of swing and a smidge of muzzle flip) with a raised rib ensured that if the trigger were pulled without pause or check as the muzzles passed through the head of the bird, sufficient lead would be created to place the cloud of shot on the bird.
When shooting driven pheasants at the average height of around 30 yards, which was the norm of the period, it was, indeed, a deadly combination.
____________________________________  The only problems with guns like this. Is that they generally have too many zeros on the price tag. But Someday, I shall hopefully get one ! Grumpy

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A Century Arms Inc Russian 1895 Nagant 7.62 Nagant

Century Arms Inc - Russian 1895 Nagant 7.62 Nagant w/ Holster serial #189520645 - Picture 1
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Century Arms Inc - Russian 1895 Nagant 7.62 Nagant w/ Holster serial #189520645 - Picture 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you say you need a good, reliable,rugged pistol that is not going to cost a lot. Something that you could throw into your pack & forget about until you need it? Then maybe you should think hard about getting one of these.
Now granted it is not a Colt Python and never will be. But is a solid gun that packs a fairly good punch. (I would not go bear hunting with it) But I also would not want shoved in my face either.
Also the Russian do make solid reliable guns. And this is a classic example of one. Plus they are fun to shoot! But it up to you to decide as it is your choice!